Anonymous: Shall I just go ahead and you’ll just ask me questions if I’m unclear?
Sam Gould: Sure, sure. That sounds good, and if I have any questions I’ll bump in.
A: So, this incident happened in 1988. And I had just dropped out of a PHD program at Columbia. I used to go up to 42nd St. a lot, because I was a member of some sort of club there. At 42nd St. & Times Square back then, I don’t know if it is still around, the US Armed Forces used to have a booth for recruitment there. It was on that little island, right on the middle of 42nd St. I don’t know if it’s still there. This is all before it got cleaned up of course. It was kind of a run down little booth, and one day I just decided to go in there just to see what they did in the there. And at the time I was an Iranian citizen here on a student visa. I actually didn’t even have a Green Card… Sam, I just realized something, I’m about to tell you about a few illegal things I’ve done…
SG: Oh…
A: …Maybe we can think about changing the name at the end of all of this?
SG: Sure, no problem.
A: So I walked in there, and I sort of poked around, and they said that basically, “if you’re interested in joining the army, or the navy, or the air force, you can take a test, and based on how you do we’ll get back in touch with you. You seem very enthusiastic.” At that time I had acquired the persona of another person who was an America citizen. The way that I had done this was that I had bought this guy’s identity.
SG: (Laughs)
A: He was this guy who lived on the streets who I knew a little bit. So, he wasn’t going to be using his US passport, can I just get your identity so I can get a passport in your name. And, so, he sold me his entire identity. For, I can’t remember, like two hundred bucks or something.
SG: Wow.
A: I had his Social Security card, and I had his Birth Certificate, and I had an ID in his name. I didn’t have the passport. So, when these people at the recruitment booth asked me whether I’d like to take the test I gave the name of this other guy whose ID cards I had, and I sat down, and I took the test. I guess most people who probably walk into that recruitment booth on 42nd St. are probably not, sort of, groomed… ah, you know, not sort of officer material. You know, groomed to do well on these tests. And I didn’t better than the average person who walks in.
SG: I would imagine they might get more impetuous people…
A: Yeah. So, they were very excited. They kept calling me. They wanted to get me into this program in the navy. It was the thing that they thought fit me best. Fit my profile best, fit my talents best. They had a whole package set up for me. They had my home number so they kept calling me, at that home number, trying to get me to come down and sign the paper officially, to enlist.
SG: Had they asked you anything about your citizenship up until this point?
A: They hadn’t asked me. I’d just given this guy’s name. I’d given them his Social Security number. I just sat in at this guy. I know that they ran some security checks, and I guess this guy came up clean. He hadn’t done anything, he was just a homeless person. They did some tests, some background check-up’s, and once that came through the called me and said, “the check-up’s went through fine, and we’d love to have you in this program.” It was quite a high level program in a nuclear submarine program.
Finally, you know, this guy kept harassing me. He kept calling me. Over about two, three, weeks after the final test, and they’d done their security check and it had gone through. He’d call everyone other day, every third day. And I final told him I was going to go to Florida, which was true, for a couple of weeks and think about it. When I came back I finally found the gumption to call the guy up and tell him. “you know, I’ve changed my mind. I don’t think I want to do this.” I slowly felt that I was sort of being peer-pressured into signing these papers. I’d also taken up a lot of this guy’s time. I learned a lot from it, and found it fascinating, but I wasted the guy’s time quite a bit. I thought that at some point they would catch up with me, after I did enlist, and realize that I’m really not this person. And then my other fantasy was that this was before, of course, 9-11, but of course there was that whole Iranian scare that was still very much part of the American psyche. And, I’m an Iranian. And the idea of an Iranian whose basically… fully penetrated the nuclear submarine program of the…
SG: It’s kind of compelling…
A: …by the simplest possible means, by just buying an ID card off the street of somebody, and having become somebody by having just spent two or three hundred dollars, it was kind of interesting to me. I thought I’d write a book at the end of it all about how shoddy American’s idea of itself as a fortress was. But then, as I said, I basically came to my senses, and realized that this will either end with me being court-marshaled and sent to jail, or tried as a spy, or even if they never found out I’d be stuck in this submarine program for a long, long time. I don’t how easy it is to walk away from these kinds of jobs.
SG: Not easy.
A: I finally said no. He called me a couple of times, I think once or twice after that, and asked me if I had changed my mind. But, that was the end of it.
It’s not a story of enlistment, but it’s a story of almost-enlist via fraudulent, weird, circumstances. But, I haven’t told this story in public before, so now I just realize that I really would like to have the name changed somehow.
SG: Absolutely.
A: (Laughs)
SG: What made you go inside in the first place? I think when we spoke earlier you had mentioned that it was a really intriguing setting, but was there more than that?
A: Well, part of it was that back then there were a lot of porn palaces, and cinemas there. Back in the 70’s and 80’s – well, it wasn’t as seedy as it was in the 70’s – but it had a feel to the place that I quite liked. This (the recruitment station in Times Sq.) was like a beacon of the, I don’t know, the American Empire in the middle of all this. It was a little shabby booth. That was what was intriguing to me. You had what was the most well endowed armed forces that the history of the world has ever seen, and then in the middle of the heart of the heart, in the middle of New York City, they have this shabby little booth, with old posters that were fading. The kind of propaganda, the visual appeal of this thing, was really rickety. They weren’t doing a great job of – you know they’ve gotten a lot better with their ad’s – they’ve managed to kind of understand what it means to use the appeal of advertising in a different way now to appeal to some people. But back then there was just this shabby booth. I liked that the back end of this mighty operation that the whole world feared, was kind of like, this little booth in Times Sq., with this guy behind a desk, sitting for people waiting to come in. That was amazing to me. And also what was interesting to me was that it was set up there in order to catch the many desperate people who were there, on the edge of some abyss, where they thought that going into the army would help them to have to face. So it was a trap that was set up, in some ways rather cleverly, but in some ways they hadn’t quite figured out the appeal of a certain kind of text/word combination. They were not as cleaver as they are now. It was this weird little shack, almost. I hardly ever go up to Times Sq. anymore. Do you know if it’s still there?
SG: I haven’t been to Times Sq. in such a long time.
A: Do you remember this booth?
SG: Oh yeah, absolutely.
A: It was this little island. You had to cross the street and be on this little island. You know it was thinner at one end, and longer at the other. The booth was the only thing on there. It was this little tiny building. I just walked in. I didn’t have a full on plan when I walked in. I walked in wanting to find out more about what the hell happens here and what the procedure is, and what’s going on. Slowly I got intrigued by the guy’s schpeel, and any times someone offers me a test, I find it kind of intriguing, so I took the test. It was a plan that I didn’t hatch all the way from the beginning, but it slowly fell together in the way I told you. I didn’t go in thinking I would go all the way to the end like I almost did. It’s only when I came back the second time, and the guy asked me to write down my name and all this stuff; it happened almost organically in some sense. It’s kind of like spinning a yarn on the spot.
SG: Do you remember the name of the guy’s identity that I bought?
A: I do. (Laughs)
SG: Do you want to reveal it?
A: What if he’s… who knows, he may still be alive too. I would say he was probably in his thirties at the time. I liked him. Every time that I saw him I would talk with him a little bit. At the time it was very hard to travel with an Iranian passport, because getting a visa, which a lot of countries asked of Iranian citizens, was almost impossible for a lot of European countries. And so my plan had been, this guy’s never going to use his passport. Would it really hurt him if I get his passport in his name with my face on it.
SG: Yeah, like is he really going to be using it?
A: The idea was that I’m not taking anything away from him. So I got his basic ID’s from him, which he could replace, of course. If you ever wanted to know how exactly to do these kinds of things you should read… this is what I need, when I was an undergraduate at Princeton I was procrastinating in the library, and I came across the court cases that Timothy Leary ended up in when he was caught smuggling drugs up from Mexico. When the caught him he had something like eight different passports – all different names – and his face. So did all the other people in the car. So, there’s a section of the trial when the head of the passport office, a woman called Mrs. Knight, testifies to exactly what the loopholes are within the passport system in this country, and what exactly would need to be done in order to close these loopholes. And she basically say’s it’s impossible. It’s impossible for us, at this point, in this country, with a very shabby correlation of data that we’ve set up in the very beginning, where states don’t talk within one another, where the birth and death certificates aren’t correlated, to know who’s died. So, this is the main way that Timothy Leary did this. He would go into newspapers, maybe not him personally, but, the group, they’d go into newspapers and find out who’d died, who would have been roughly a similar age had the person lived. And then you can back track and get this persons birth certificate, ID, etc… And also you can take living persons who decide not to use the stuff.
Most countries have what they call and National Register. I know in Sweden they have it. In England they have it. When you’re born you’re assigned a number in the registry, and when you died, in that same national register, they correlate the two of them. Birth and death certificates in this country are even necessarily in the same building. And the states don’t necessarily correlate with one another. So, if you’re born in New Jersey and die in Alaska that is like the person… the person can’t be verified as the person in New Jersey. This was still true in the 80’s. I don’t know if things have changed since then. Mrs. Knight said within the trial that there is no way that we can go backwards and correlate all this information maybe going forward at some point we can figure out a way to do this. And, of course, the 80’s, computers were not as digitized as they are now.
SG: So, going into the recruitment center, it seems like you almost viewed the place as, well, kind of romantic.
A: Well, it wasn’t romantic, but it was intriguing to see this little representation of the armed forces there in such a strange place. This club I was a member of, I went there to go to the gym. I went there something like two times a week. I went past this place quite often, and I never ever ever saw a person in there. I never saw anybody trapped within this little trap that they’d set up. So part of it was trying to figure out what goes on in there. Part of it was the fact that no one ever seemed to want to go in there, so it made me want to go in a see what happened in there. And, I guess, part of it was just simple curiosity, ideal curiosity, or some such, just to find out more about it.
All the sort of political things that I’m talking with you about, like, maybe how I could write a book about how an Iranian could, using two hundred dollars and very little else, penetrated a very secret part of the US Navy. All of those things were afterwards, created afterwards, thinking, what could I have done had I followed through. I didn’t go in with those ideas. It was much more impulsive. Maybe that’s romantic. I’m not sure. So, as I said, all this stuff about a book and whatnot came later, as he became more persistent, and he spent more and more time, and money on me; grading the test, sending me stuff, they sent me all these videos, then doing the security check you feel like his grip was tightening. I just felt like I couldn’t look him in the eye and tell him it was all a joke, I had no intention of ever joining, and the truth is I’m an Iranian citizen. I lied about all the other stuff. I couldn’t look him in the eye and even tell him, “hey, I’m not that interested.” I had to play the game of seriously considering it, both for the game to drag on and for me to extract myself for it to seem natural to him. I also, of course, worried a little bit that they may follow up and wonder why I did this. I got paranoid a little at the end there that they may follow and find out who I really was and why I had sort of done it this way. They never did, and I think probably a lot of people get close to joining…
SG: Oh yeah. But, then there are a lot of people who they get close and then they bring’em right in. And then their stuck for years.
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